'Zebra' lawsuit ignites chain reaction in online real estate community
Broker who filed complaint says she has faced 'firestorm of retaliation'
By Matt Carter, Thursday, March 3, 2011.
Real estate broker and trainer Denise Lones says she's faced "a firestorm of retaliation" on the Internet over a trademark infringement suit she filed last week against real estate agent and blogger Daniel Rothamel.
Lones, whose company provides marketing and other business services to real estate agents, says supporters of Rothamel launched "one of the most aggressive online bullying campaigns I've seen," after a Feb. 25 story about the lawsuit published by Inman News.
Lones and Rothamel both employ zebra-themed imagery on their websites. Rothamel authors the Real Estate Zebra blog and promotes himself as "Real Estate Zebra," and Lones publishes "The Zebra Report" and writes the "Zebra Blog." In her lawsuit, Lones claims her use of zebra imagery predates Rothamel's, and that he is a direct competitor.
Rothamel said his "zebra" handle relates to his work as a high school and college basketball referee, and that he had never heard of the Lones Group before receiving a cease-and-desist letter from the company's lawyer in July.
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The lawsuit generated a flurry of blog posts and discussions among Realtors and other real estate industry professionals on numerous websites, including social networking sites Facebook and Twitter.
Many commentators questioned Lones' decision to sue Rothamel, who is well known among real estate professionals for not only his blog, which he started in 2006, but as a frequent moderator and presenter at Inman News events. Numerous supporters of Rothamel have changed their social media profiles to display zebra photos.
Rothamel is one of several presenters scheduled to speak Wednesday at Inman News' Agent Reboot one-day event in Seattle, where he will discuss topics including the use of blogging and Facebook as marketing tools (Rothamel received the cease-and-desist letter from Lones prior to the announcement about his appearance in Seattle).
Some of Lones' critics said she should have known that suing Rothamel would generate bad publicity in the real estate industry that would harm her business, and that her decision showed a poor grasp of Internet and social media marketing techniques.
"I think it's safe to say the Lones Group had no clue" what the reaction would be to filing the lawsuit "against a blogger as well known and respected as Daniel Rothamel," wrote Drew Meyers, a former Zillow.com community relations specialist turned consultant, in a Feb. 26 blog post. "Doing what they just did is pure brand suicide in today's social media world."
Discussions about the lawsuits, including a Facebook page created by Rothamel's supporters, now turn up prominently in search engine results for Lones' business, The Lones Group.
"Several pages of (search engine) results are stacked with toxic, defamatory, misleading, and incorrect information about this woman and her business," said Frances Flynn Thorsen, a former Realtor who who now works as a real estate writer, educator and consultant.
"The issue is not about the lawsuit anymore, it's about cyber bullying and the mob mentality," Thorsen told Inman News, elaborating on a blog post she wrote in Lones' defense.
Miami Beach, Fla.-based Realtor Kevin Tomlinson, commenting on Meyers' post, seconded Thorsen's take that the flood of criticism directed against Lones amounted to bullying.
"You guys are out to teach her a Google lesson and you are taking part in bullying her yourself," Tomlinson wrote.
Thorsen was particularly dismayed that Todd Carpenter, the National Association of Realtors' director of digital engagement, chose to weigh in on the topic on Realtor Magazine's "Speaking of Real Estate" blog.
In his blog post, Carpenter not only acknowledged that "thousands of comments and tweets have spewed from an angry mob," but identified himself, tongue-in-cheek, as "a member of this angry mob."
"Daniel is a friend of mine and that relationship biases my personal opinion about this situation," Carpenter explained.
Relating a similarly awkward situation he'd found himself in several years ago, Carpenter advised Lones that "doing something magnanimous like dropping the suit with a humble blog post could do wonders."
Carpenter acknowledged that The Lones Group "may decide the lawsuit is more important than the mob they're facing right now. But I hope they understand that backing down could be the bigger win for them in the long run."
Like Rothamel, Lones is a NAR member, Thorsen said, and NAR should not be seen as weighing in against Lones in a pending legal matter.
Thorsen said she thinks Carpenter, along with some Realtors who have been critical of Lones, may have violated the Realtor Code of Ethics, which prohibits Realtors from "making false or misleading statements about competitors, competitors' businesses and competitors' business practices."
Carpenter told Inman News that his post did not discuss the legal merits of Lones' case, only the social media reaction, and that the Realtor Code of Ethics did not apply to the post. Those who have criticized Carpenter for offering his opinion are "making a mountain out of a molehill," he said.
Calls for boycott
While some who have commented on the lawsuit said they wanted to help Lones with damage control, some agents stated they would never do business with her, and some have called for a boycott of her business.
On the Google place page for The Lones Group, one anonymous commenter also threatened to boycott other companies that hire Lones.
"Want to be boycotted? Hire them," an individual stated. "There is currently a boycott of them and anyone who hires them being planned by the most influential real estate professionals and consumer groups."
A Denver-based consultant who offers website design services to real estate professionals, Knox Richards, created a fake Lones Group website that featured zebra imagery and used the URL of one of his own businesses.
"Welcome to our Zebra News blog focusing on real estate marketing," the fake Lones Group website stated. "We revolutionized the world of real estate marketing but have no idea how the Internet works."
The site was taken down Wednesday evening, but was still available for viewing in a Google cache.
"What's coming up when people search 'Denise Lones' is all these negative articles," said Marlow Harris, a Seattle-based Realtor. "They are not well measured. They're not calm. They're calling for a lynching."
Harris, who has attended seminars conducted by Lones and also met Rothamel, said she doesn't want to be seen as taking sides in the dispute, but said many who have commented on it seem to too quick to dismiss Lones' right to have her day in court.
Harris said she herself was confused by the similarity of the "zebra" branding employed by both Lones and Rothamel. When Rothamel first launched his Real Estate Zebra blog, Harris assumed it was Lones' and tried to send her a note of congratulations through a contact form on the blog.
"When Real Estate Zebra appeared, I said, 'Denise, welcome to the blogosphere, so glad you're joining us," Harris said. "Daniel e-mailed me back and said, 'No, it's my blog.' "
Each might have still been unaware of each other, Harris said, because "I never said boo to either person about it."
"It seems to me it's a business disagreement that's not anybody (else's) business," Harris said. "I'm sure Daniel is a nice guy, but it's kind of irrelevant -- its going to go to the courts, let them decide."
Statement from Lones Group
Lones did not respond to requests for comment. But in a statement on her website, the real estate broker and trainer said she has spent years building a strong brand and has a legal right to protect it.
"While we understand that Mr. Rothamel's friends and social media contacts have a right to their opinion, the actions taken by these individuals are inflaming the situation, and detracting from the actual issue at hand," Lones' statement said. What started as a trademark infringement issue "has now turned into full-scale social media bullying."
Lones promised that her company would not "engage in slander or do any damage online" to Rothamel, or "leave unpleasant messages" on his phone or website contact forms.
She also stated, "In spite of the negative publicity this situation has generated, we are adamant about our right to protect our brand," Lones said. "We encourage members of the real estate community to be prudent in their reaction to the lawsuit."
Rothamel said he, too, has been surprised by the level of interest in the lawsuit and the outpouring of support for him, and said he did not orchestrate or coordinate the response.
Asked if he had seen any actions by his supporters on his behalf that concerned him, he said he hadn't.
"My preference is always that people are positive, but people are going to have their reactions, and I can't control their reaction," Rothamel said. "I can only control my reaction."
One of Rothamel's most ardent supporters, Phoenix-based broker Jay Thompson, said that in writing about the lawsuit, he did not intend to harm her business, though he said he believes Lones was wrong to sue Rothamel.
Thompson said Wednesday that he was working on a follow-up post to his initial take on the lawsuit, which he said he had de-indexed in order to reduce its prominence in Google's rankings.
Thompson's Feb. 25 post, "The Lones Group v. Rothamel: A case study in destroying your online reputation," quickly rose to the first page of results in Google rankings of keyword searches for "The Lones Group," generating more than 200 comments.
"There is little doubt that posts like you are reading now will get indexed in Google -- forever," Thompson wrote at the time. "Even those agents who aren't active in the social media space are likely to Google The Lones Group."
Thompson said he is not de-indexing the original post out of any fear that Lones will sue him, but wants to make it clear that it was never his intent to harm her business.
(In his follow-up post, published after he spoke to Inman News, Thompson said, "It is my hope that no one attacks Denise or her company. 'Attack the idea, not the person,' debating in an open, honest, non-adversarial way is a good thing.").
Although he originally praised Richards' parody Lones Group site -- "Knox, you are THE man" Thompson said in an exchange with Richards in the comment section of a blog post -- the site was "not as spiteful" when he commented about it, Thompson said.
Thompson said he has asked Richards to remove a link connecting the parody site to Thompson's PhoenixRealEsateGuy.com site.
Richards, who also claimed credit for the parody Lones Group site on the Facebook fan page created by Rothamel's supporters, did not respond to a request for comment submitted to his firm's website. The link to Thompson's site was removed Wednesday, and all references to the Lones Group were removed later in the evening.
Thompson deplored anonymous sniping at Lones, but said he and other prominent figures in the "RE.net" -- as the real estate blogosphere is sometimes called -- aren't to blame for the actions of others.
"If you don't have the guts to put your name behind what you have to say, you should shut up and not say anything," Thompson said.
Anonymous threats are uncalled for, Thompson said, and "I personally feel bad if someone took the post I wrote about the suit and twisted it into something bad for Denise."
Thompson said he hopes his follow-up blog post "will make some people think about what they've done."
But, he said, "I'm not their father and I can't make them do things. There are people who listen to my opinion, so I do have some obligation to clarify the article that I wrote," he said.
Thompson, who is a friend of Rothamel's, has also started a legal defense fund for Rothamel that he said has raised more than $2,000 to date.
"It's a very emotional situation," Thompson said. "Daniel is such a good guy -- so well-liked by people. I'm defending a friend, is what it boils down to. I take my friendships very seriously, and when someone attacks a friend of mine, I'm going to do what I can to help them -- but not at the expense of Denise's business."
The trademark issues in dispute are obviously important to both Lones and Rothamel. Lones said in the online statement, "We will pursue whatever course of action our attorneys recommend to appropriately resolve this issue," and Rothamel says that for his part, "I know what my brand is, and this situation has made it even more clear to me than it was before."
Power of social media
But the lawsuit seems to have touched a larger, collective nerve, illustrating of the power of the Internet as a tool to not only build, but also to potentially damage reputations and brands.
Carpenter recalled another incident that took place nearly three years ago, in which Redfin CEO Glenn Kelman defused a flap that erupted when one of the company's "contract bloggers" likened San Diego-based broker Kris Berg and her husband to a pair of toy dolls.
Berg -- who is a prominent blogger and an Inman News columnist -- had taken a swipe at a new Redfin home-tour service, and what Berg described as the "wacky goings-on at the Redfin think tank."
The Redfin blogger published an item on San Diego Sweet Digs, one of several localized Redfin company blogs, that criticized Berg and belittled a food drive that she and her husband, Steve, had organized in their community.
Kelman promptly fired the blogger, apologized to Berg, and issued "an apology to everyone else in real estate, many of whom have reacted to more than just what we said about Kris," he said at the time.
Kelman used the rest of the post to discuss the tensions between traditional brokerages employing traditional commission-based models and Redfin, which pays agents salaries and customer-satisfaction bonuses.
He said the post about Berg had made him "physically ill" -- not only because Berg was a "wonderful person, a total pro and a darn good blogger," but because it deepened the "brainless, destructive division between Redfin and our peers" that had caused him great anguish.
Carpenter said that by admitting that the blogger had made a mistake and apologizing, Kelman "completely turned around the situation. People went from going, 'I can't believe Redfin is doing this,' to 'Glenn is a stand-up guy.' "
Thompson, who blasted the Redfin blogger on his own site, praised Kelman as "a stand-up guy" for firing the blogger and issuing an apology.
Thompson recalled another incident in which a property management firm in Chicago sued a tenant who had complained about her moldy apartment on Twitter. He also blogged about that case, calling it a textbook example of "how to royally screw up your reputation via social media."
Thompson said he thinks one reason people have reacted so strongly to the Lones Group's lawsuit against Rothamel is that "we're a very litigious society, and that annoys a lot of people, including me. Pick up the phone and talk before you get the lawyers involved."
Thompson said he resolved an issue with another agent, who was using "Phoenix real estate guy" as a byline on blog posts, by picking up the phone.
"He was very cool about it -- he knew about the blog and changed his byline," Thompson said. He said he also avoided picking a fight with an agent who has registered the website URL phoenixrealestategirl.com.
"I could argue that's infringing on me -- we're in the same market," Thompson said. "If I had a problem with it, I wouldn't go to an attorney, I'd call her up. And if she said, 'Screw you,' I wouldn't sue her."
Carpenter, who noted wryly that "I'm employed by this organization that every once in awhile gets criticized," said sometimes it's best to just stay on the sidelines.
When NAR comes under fire in the blogosphere and facts are misrepresented, it's sometimes necessary to engage in the conversation, Carpenter said.
"Other times, when people state an opinion, they are welcome to state it," he said. "If we engage, we are actually bringing more of an audience to them. Just because somebody is criticizing you doesn't mean you are going to engage with them. Trying to argue with them online doesn't always work."
Rothamel said of the online reaction to the lawsuit, "there's a lot to be learned from this entire situation. That's one of the things I do hope comes out of this. My hope is if we can learn from this, we can avoid this type of situation in the future. I don't want to have anybody to have to go through this."
And Thompson said the online response has been "a fascinating thing to watch. It's a very interesting look at the impact of social media. That's why I'm watching it, and a whole lot of people are watching it."
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Submitted by Kevin Tomlinson on March 3, 2011 - 1:10pm.
Jay Thompson's post was specifically "designed" to "kill" her reputation in Google.
In Frances Flynn Thorsen's post one of the commenters was outright asked to LINK to Jay's post so it could get more "Google Juice."
Appalling. Sad. This attack wasn't organic. It was orchestrated and was orchestrated with the intent to mar the online reputation that she "did" have.
I like Daniel. I don't know Denise Lones. Their lawsuit is none of my business. Lawsuits are tough for all involved.
It is further evidenced in the lined out portion of Drew Meyer's original post.
The original intent of the crusade was to teach Lones a lesson by using the re dot net's SEO skills to ablate her in Google.
Any other information is just bull.
Miami Beach Real Estate Resource
South Beach Real Estate Blog
About Miami Beach Florida
Submitted by Kevin Tomlinson on March 3, 2011 - 1:17pm.
It was an orchestrated attack. It wasn't organic.
One of the commenters in Frances Flynn Thorsen's post was even asked to link to Jay Thompson's post to get him more Google Juice.
Jay's post was designed with the intent to ablate Lones reputation in the SERPs.
The intent of the attack was further evidenced in Drew Meyer's original post. The part of the post that hinted at SEO recourse for Lones would later be lined out.
The lawsuit is none of my business.
The crusade I am witnessing against Lones from people in the re dot net is discouraging---especially from people who have professed to be good natured, intelligent people.
I don't see any of those good traits being demonstrated here.
Kevin Tomlinson
Miami Beach Real Estate Resource
South Beach Real Estate Blog
About Miami Beach Florida
Submitted by Kevin Tomlinson on March 3, 2011 - 1:18pm.
It was an orchestrated attack. It wasn't organic.
One of the commenters in Frances Flynn Thorsen's post was even asked to link to Jay Thompson's post to get him more Google Juice.
Jay's post was designed with the intent to ablate Lones reputation in the SERPs.
The intent of the attack was further evidenced in Drew Meyer's original post. The part of the post that hinted at SEO recourse for Lones would later be lined out.
The lawsuit is none of my business.
The crusade I am witnessing against Lones from people in the re dot net is discouraging---especially from people who have professed to be good natured, intelligent people.
I don't see any of those good traits being demonstrated here.
Kevin Tomlinson
www.kevintomlinson.com
www.southbeachrealestateblog.com
Submitted by Kevin Tomlinson on March 3, 2011 - 1:19pm.
It was an orchestrated attack. It wasn't organic.
One of the commenters in Frances Flynn Thorsen's post was even asked to link to Jay Thompson's post to get him more Google Juice.
Jay's post was designed with the intent to ablate Lones reputation in the SERPs.
The intent of the attack was further evidenced in Drew Meyer's original post. The part of the post that hinted at SEO recourse for Lones would later be lined out.
The lawsuit is none of my business.
The crusade I am witnessing against Lones from people in the re dot net is discouraging---especially from people who have professed to be good natured, intelligent people.
I don't see any of those good traits being demonstrated here.
Kevin Tomlinson
www.kevintomlinson.com
www.southbeachrealestateblog.com
Submitted by Kevin Tomlinson on March 3, 2011 - 1:20pm.
It was an orchestrated attack. It wasn't organic.
One of the commenters in Frances Flynn Thorsen's post was even asked to link to Jay Thompson's post to get him more Google Juice.
Jay's post was designed with the intent to ablate Lones reputation in the SERPs.
The intent of the attack was further evidenced in Drew Meyer's original post. The part of the post that hinted at SEO recourse for Lones would later be lined out.
The lawsuit is none of my business.
The crusade I am witnessing against Lones from people in the re dot net is discouraging---especially from people who have professed to be good natured, intelligent people.
I don't see any of those good traits being demonstrated here.
Kevin Tomlinson
www.kevintomlinson.com
www.southbeachrealestateblog.com
Submitted by Jim Abbott on March 3, 2011 - 2:29pm.
Give both these kindergarteners a lengthy time out and don't sell me their inane stories as news on this otherwise valuable site.
Thanks,
Jim Abbott, President/Managing Broker
ARG Abbott Realty Group
435 4th Ave San Diego, CA 92101
619-398-3888 voice/fax/mobile
jim.abbott@argsd.com
Submitted by Eric Johnson on March 3, 2011 - 2:51pm.
I do not know either party in this lawsuit though I do follow Dan on Twitter. So, I have very little involvement in this issue.
I strongly disagree with Kevin Tomlinson's view that the outpouring of support for Dan was 'orchestrated.' I feel it was just HONEST feelings being posted on Twitter, FB, & blogs. Every post I saw was civil and fairly straight forward. I didn't see any attacks or threats as some have stated nor do I consider this to be a crusade.
In my case, I was amazed that a RE branding company who say they "know marketing" would sue a Realtor over a very different use of the zebra symbology. As such I made several Twitter comments supportive of Dan and I changed my Avatar @ItsEric to a zebra skin because of my opinion of this lawsuit.
No one asked me to do these things.
Based on what's been made public, I still support Dan on this issue.
Eric Johnson
Submitted by RJ Laffins on March 3, 2011 - 2:52pm.
for $5 one of them can go to fiverr and have a new logo made
Submitted by Lou Lynch on March 3, 2011 - 3:00pm.
Orchestrated yes, attack no. A mere showing of support for a fellow member of the social media community against a company that is wrongfully suing him for the right to use the stripes of a Zebra ... Come on!
Real Estate Blogger
Submitted by Mike McCutcheon on March 3, 2011 - 3:25pm.
Isn't it great to have such lengthy and i,mportant discussions1 Much more fun than Libya, $5 gasoline, or whether there will be a 201 NFL season. I believe Zebras come in two stripes (no pun intended). One has vertical and the other one horizontal; I think one is in Asia, the other in Africa. When I think back on it, I believe the infamous Rodney King said it best: "Can't we all get along?" Come on guys/gals settle your differences and get on with your business - selling real estate.
Submitted by Brian McCarthy on March 3, 2011 - 3:26pm.
"I didn't see any attacks or threats as some have stated nor do I consider this to be a crusade".
What about the boycott?
There's nothing wrong with having an opinion, expressing it, and showing support for a side or person. However, threatening and/or carrying out a boycott is rather childish just because you disagree with someone's decision. I wonder how that boycott is carried out. It seems to me that clients on both sides could be hurt by the decision to not do business with a certain firm. That means the boycott negatively affects them as a byproduct of a small feud which has nothing to do with them. Personal feelings should be put aside in the interest of the client. The lawsuit is a business decision and legal matter. Like Jay, I would have approached the other person directly first, but that didn't happen here. Take a step back, don't let emotion cloud judgment (perhaps that's what's at the root of the whole brouhaha?), and let the court decide. In the meantime, business as usual.
Brian McCarthy
Realtor, ABR
ZipRealty, Inc
Submitted by Kris Berg on March 3, 2011 - 3:36pm.
Jim,
I think there is "news" in this if you consider the large agent audience Inman enjoys, many of whom have not (yet) had to consider online reputation management. If the only take-away is a reminder to be more measured in our online communications, then it is a valuable lesson.
During the now-infamous "Barbie" episode, it took every ounce of resolve I could muster to stay silent, which I did. Whether we find ourselves in the role of the victim or the victimizer, every online utterance becomes a matter of public record that lives on. Do-overs are difficult in cyber-space.
Kris Berg
San Diego Castles Realty
San Diego Home Blog
Submitted by Kevin Tomlinson on March 3, 2011 - 3:48pm.
"Fascinating to watch?"
Depressing, disillusioned, disppointed seems to be more appropriate.
Miami Beach Real Estate Resource
South Beach Real Estate Blog
About Miami Beach Florida
Submitted by Kevin Tomlinson on March 3, 2011 - 3:50pm.
"Fascinating to watch?"
Depressing or disappointing seems to more like it.
Submitted by Jay Thompson on March 3, 2011 - 4:11pm.
Fascinating: adjective - 1) arousing great interest. 2) To capture the interest or hold the attention.
Given your continued reading and commenting Kevin (and MANY others), it would seem to be of interest and holding your attention. Understandable. It *is* fascinating. Fascinating does not necessarily = good or right.
Jay Thompson
Broker / Owner
Thompson's Realty
Blog: www.PhoenixRealEstateGuy.com
.
Submitted by Knox Richards on March 3, 2011 - 4:49pm.
Matt - the site wasn't taken down as you wrote, I blocked you becasue you squatted on my sites for over 7 hours hitting refresh and was skewing my logs.
Fake?? Hardly. Satire and parody is lost with some (appreciated by others). I appreciate you interest and to all the Zebra supporters out there- we know this wasn't a mob attack or anything else the perpetual victims may claim. It's called bad press and comedy.
Jay followed up his article with class. Will the Lones group do anything like that? (my guess is that they will remain stubborn). Yes, it's their right to sue, as it's my right to support Daniel, right to blog, right to make parody sites and right to point out that your labeling of my parody as a "fake" is wrong. I do appreciate the attention you have given the site and the click through is nice.
Though I have NO affiliation with Daniel and have never even met Jay, the domain authority is being redirected to the Real Estate Zebra (under no marching orders or orchestration). That's my right as well.
Good article Matt, I thanked you on the "fake" site - I'll unblock your ip now. Thanks for indirectly (even if unknowingly) helped support Daniel with your effort.
Submitted by Lou Lynch on March 3, 2011 - 5:05pm.
For some reason, Knox Richards is unable to post to this thread. Here is his response found on the website referenced by this article.
******************************
Matt – the site wasn’t taken down as you wrote, I blocked you because you squatted on my sites for over 7 hours hitting refresh and was skewing my logs.
Fake?? Hardly. Satire and parody is lost with some (appreciated by others). I appreciate you interest and to all the Zebra supporters out there- we know this wasn’t a mob attack or anything else the perpetual victims may claim. It’s called bad press and comedy.
Jay followed up his article with class. Will the Lones group do anything like that? (my guess is that they will remain stubborn). Yes, it’s their right to sue, as it’s my right to support Daniel, right to blog, right to make parody sites and right to point out that your labeling of my parody as a “fake” is wrong. I do appreciate the attention you have given the site and the click through is nice.
Though I have NO affiliation with Daniel and have never even met Jay, the domain authority is being redirected to the Real Estate Zebra (under no marching orders or orchestration). That’s my right as well.
Good article Matt, I thanked you on the “fake” site – I’ll unblock your ip now. Thanks for indirectly (even if unknowingly) helped support Daniel with your effort.
Submitted by Kevin Tomlinson on March 3, 2011 - 5:06pm.
I am a highly educated person. I don't need a vocabulary lesson. Whatever.
Miami Beach Real Estate Resource
South Beach Real Estate Blog
About Miami Beach Florida
Submitted by Kevin Tomlinson on March 3, 2011 - 5:07pm.
Jay,
I am a highly educated person. I don't need a vocab lesson.
Submitted by Knox Richards on March 3, 2011 - 5:13pm.
Why won't you post my comment after writing directly about me? hmm
Submitted by Knox Richards on March 3, 2011 - 5:14pm.
Matt – the site wasn’t taken down as you wrote, I blocked you becasue you squatted on my sites for over 7 hours hitting refresh and was skewing my logs.
Fake?? Hardly. Satire and parody is lost with some (appreciated by others). I appreciate your interest and to all the Zebra supporters out there- we know this wasn’t a mob attack or anything else the perpetual victims may claim. It’s called bad press and comedy.
Jay followed up his article with class. Will the Lones group do anything like that? (my guess is that they will remain stubborn). Yes, it’s their right to sue, as it’s my right to support Daniel, right to blog, right to make parody sites and right to point out that your labeling of my parody as a “fake” is wrong. I do appreciate the attention you have given the site and the click through is nice.
Though I have NO affiliation with Daniel and have never even met Jay, the domain authority is being redirected to the Real Estate Zebra (under no marching orders or orchestration). That’s my right as well.
Good article Matt, I thanked you on the “fake” site – I’ll unblock your ip now. Thanks for indirectly (even if unknowingly) helping support Daniel with your effort.
Submitted by Matt Carter on March 3, 2011 - 6:04pm.
Knox -- sorry your comment did not appear right away. We have an automated spam filter that has been especially touchy with this story, as several others who have had difficulty getting comments posted to this story and the last can attest. We have to do a manual override when issues come to our attention.
When I reported that the Lones Group parody site you created had been "taken down," to my knowledge I was not being blocked from the site. I checked in a couple times last night as I was writing the story, and first I saw the link to PhoenixRealEstateGuy.com removed, and then I saw the header change from "About the Lones Group" to the "Monkeys Sitting in Applesauce" title you have up now. A bunch of gibberish copy was subbed in for the content you had before that is still visible in Google cache.
As noted in the story, I attempted to contact you yesterday. I was unable to find any contact info for you on your site, knoxing.com, so I submitted my phone number in the contact form of your website.
My phone number is (510) 658 9252 x150 and my e-mail is matt@inman.com.
Submitted by Jim Hale on March 3, 2011 - 6:46pm.
The article suggests that the defendant in this suit should be an exception to the rules because (1) he is a heckaofgoodguy and (2) he is popular.
If the plaintiff is right that her work with the images predates his and that he is a direct competitor, the better course of action on his part would be to drop his defense of his actions and go get himself a new logo/image.
Such a voluntary act on his part, handled well, might put him on the map in a new, bigger and wholly positive way.
His friends do him no favor by supporting his continued use of images he should not be using.
If he volunteers the change, the plaintiff should carry a nice little note on her work, linking anybody looking for him to his new logo/site - for, say, a year or so.
Win-partial win sounds a lot better than win-screw you to me.
Submitted by Knox Richards on March 3, 2011 - 6:57pm.
Thanks Matt
I didn't receive an email - wasn't sure what site you used to contact me from at first but I admit I have had some email form issues for a couple days.
Thanks for allowing the comment - I admit being flagged raised an eyebrow of suspicion. I do believe you attempted to contact me, and I wish it were successful, though I'm sure the basis of your article would have remained the same - and that's okay.
My "interest" in this matter is NOT client based in any way but simply something I'm interested in and have taken it up on my own volition. Jay liking my "site" is no sign of the "conspiracy" (few) people believe to exist and I love the fact that people can share their opinions.
I will say - I have never contacted Lones by phone or email, but do reserve the right to post my opinions in any way on my own manages properties.
You wrote about me under the Bold type of "Calls for boycott".
You woe - "Want to be boycotted? Hire them," an individual stated. "There is currently a boycott of them and anyone who hires them being planned by the most influential real estate professionals and consumer groups."" and then go right in to mentioning ME. I haven't called for a boycott or attempted to organize one. I am not "calling for a lynching" though I'm sure you won't clarify it to readers.
"The gibberish was subbed in" (being the title) to accelerate a change in Google serpes - I'm sure you understand that after assuming the Jay / Knox connection and after reading his follow-up post.
My view of the "bullying" it that of the Lones going after monetary damages for using a Zebra. (I can't wait for the evidense that they had suffered 75k worth of diverted sales). And yeah - I'll continue standing up for him and others well after this ends. Really, though Jay has found it in his heart to refrain from further engagement, I find it sick that Lones is trying to portray themselves as a victim - first with their silly complaint, then again with their response to bad press. If they don't like what they see when Googling themselves then they should learn the trade they claim to have revolutionized. Again - just my opinion.
Because I didn't receive a msg from you, feel free to email knox@knoxing.com with any questions before "attacking":) me online again. I'm not writing to spar with you - again, thanks.
Submitted by David Losh on March 3, 2011 - 9:18pm.
I just got back from REBar Seattle where the Daniel Rothemal supporters were out in force. It has gotten to be a big joke. From what I gather most of the social media people who are bashing Denise Lones are short timers to the industry. Most are tech people. Daniel, as I understand it, is a tech guy who used to work for Inman News.
The deal for me is that this Inman News Connect is coming to my town to sell Real Estate agents on the virtues of "social" media. Real Estate agents have to get it, or they will be left behind, from what I am told.
You're the people who don't "get it." Real Estate agents are the most productive, innovative, engaged individuals on the planet. Real Estate agents made you what you are today, it's not the other way around.
Inman News "broke" this story because Denise Lones had a cease and desist order since last July. Daniel ignored that, and "just turned it over to his attorney." When Daniel was still coming to Seattle to emcee the Inman News Connect Denise had no choice but to file the lawsuit. Inman News was then "compelled," I'm sure, to run the breaking news story.
Come on, you couldn't script this better. Daniel now has a video thanking you all for the support, and it is only fanning the flames. Now we have this follow up "story."
I've been told repeatedly to stay out of it. I wouldn't know Denise Lones if I saw her on the street. What I know is she is a long time local Real Estate person. Daniel is a short timer, eight years in the business? who is coming to my town to tell us how it's supposed to be done. Denise has been an agent, worked her way up to be a trainer, done work that is uplifting to the Real Estate community, and she, a woman owned, independent business owner is under attack.
I don't know what Inman News is, nor do I care. They have had some contracts with our NWMLS, but they provide me with nothing. I do my social media for a couple of hours a day, every day, and have yet to be annoyed by Inman News until this last week.
Well I certainly know who you are now. You're the people who come to my town with your own little social network.
Flame on.
Submitted by Ben Kinney on March 3, 2011 - 9:27pm.
Wow - Interesting conversation. I have the pleasure of living in Bellingham, Washington (Home of the Lones Group)
Few comments: I have never met Dan but respect him in the industry and have enjoyed his contributions to RE. His branding is for his own personal use and promotion and he has done a great job building that brand.
When I reached out to Dan he was humble and polite. His only comment was "I wish she would of picked up the phone and just called me. I am sure we could of worked it out."
It saddens me that now good money in tough times will have to be spent by Dan over a silly issue that two adults could of resolved.
Denise Lones: Although not nationally famous in RE. She has built a good following in our NW region. I have had the honor of sitting panels with her and seeing her content and having her clients as agents in my brokerages. Denise is a good person and a talented teacher.
That being said Denise. Daniel sells real estate - You sell coaching and products. He is no competition to you. In fact like when a musicians songs are used on youtube. Smart musicians let it ride and benefit from the additional exposure (IE Barcelona music used on the Kurioso Sea Aquarium video)
I would of been more supportive if Dan had: Ripped off your brand (he had no idea who you were), offered a similiar product, worked in the same market, or responded poorly to a conversation.
Denise I do not understand how he negatively affects your business? Why you did not just call him and seek first to understand.
------------------
Secondly I would not see Dan's supports as bullying or harrrassing (although I have no idea about the details of your calls, emails, website forms, ...) Dan now has to hire an attorney to respond and waste both of yours money in a time when it is really not needed.
SO never give an opinion with out some advice.
Dan - come to Bellingham and teach a blogging class and you can stay with me!
Denise - Join him for the class. Now that would be fun.
Both of you please kiss and make up. This is silly. I feel so sorry for all poor zebras out there. They are the innocent victims in this battle and the only winners are attorneys.
With love and support
Ben
Submitted by Ben Kinney on March 3, 2011 - 9:28pm.
Wow - Interesting conversation. I have the pleasure of living in Bellingham, Washington (Home of the Lones Group)
Few comments: I have never met Dan but respect him in the industry and have enjoyed his contributions to RE. His branding is for his own personal use and promotion and he has done a great job building that brand.
When I reached out to Dan he was humble and polite. His only comment was "I wish she would of picked up the phone and just called me. I am sure we could of worked it out."
It saddens me that now good money in tough times will have to be spent by Dan over a silly issue that two adults could of resolved.
Denise Lones: Although not nationally famous in RE. She has built a good following in our NW region. I have had the honor of sitting panels with her and seeing her content and having her clients as agents in my brokerages. Denise is a good person and a talented teacher.
That being said Denise. Daniel sells real estate - You sell coaching and products. He is no competition to you. In fact like when a musicians songs are used on youtube. Smart musicians let it ride and benefit from the additional exposure (IE Barcelona music used on the Kurioso Sea Aquarium video)
I would of been more supportive if Dan had: Ripped off your brand (he had no idea who you were), offered a similiar product, worked in the same market, or responded poorly to a conversation.
Denise I do not understand how he negatively affects your business? Why you did not just call him and seek first to understand.
------------------
Secondly I would not see Dan's supports as bullying or harrrassing (although I have no idea about the details of your calls, emails, website forms, ...) Dan now has to hire an attorney to respond and waste both of yours money in a time when it is really not needed.
SO never give an opinion with out some advice.
Dan - come to Bellingham and teach a blogging class and you can stay with me!
Denise - Join him for the class. Now that would be fun.
Both of you please kiss and make up. This is silly. I feel so sorry for all poor zebras out there. They are the innocent victims in this battle and the only winners are attorneys.
With love and support
Ben
Submitted by Kevin Tomlinson on March 4, 2011 - 12:09am.
I think that Thompson (Jay) and Meyers (Drew) quickly wrote "I'm sorry" posts because their posts could possibly be interpreted as a clear attempt to hurt Lones business.
I chuckle at the dufus agents who praise these men after they wrote the "I'm so sorry" post as being of EVEN finer character.
It's like slapping your mom across the face and then saying "I'm sorry, Mom" and then her buying you a car just because you apologized.
To the followers, the people who so desperately want to be on the "inside" of the re dot net: I implore you to find your own brain and form your OWN thoughts.
If Jay T. and/or @tcar gave you a free ticket to Jonestown and offered you free Kool Aid--most of you would brag about being in the "in group" --without giving the trip or drink a second thought.
Bottoms up.
Miami Beach Real Estate Resource
South Beach Real Estate Blog
About Miami Beach Florida
Submitted by Kevin Tomlinson on March 4, 2011 - 12:10am.
I think that Thompson (Jay) and Meyers (Drew) quickly wrote "I'm sorry" posts because their posts could possibly be interpreted as a clear attempt to hurt Lones business.
I chuckle at the dufus agents who praise these men after they wrote the "I'm so sorry" post as being of EVEN finer character.
It's like slapping your mom across the face and then saying "I'm sorry, Mom" and then her buying you a car just because you apologized.
To the followers, the people who so desperately want to be on the "inside" of the re dot net: I implore you to find your own brain and form your OWN thoughts.
If Jay T. and/or @tcar gave you a free ticket to Jonestown and offered you free Kool Aid--most of you would brag about being in the "in group" --without giving the trip or drink a second thought.
Bottoms up.
Kevin Tomlinson
www.ihavemyownbrain.com
Submitted by Kevin Tomlinson on March 4, 2011 - 12:11am.
I think that Thompson (Jay) and Meyers (Drew) quickly wrote "I'm sorry" posts because their posts could possibly be interpreted as a clear attempt to hurt Lones business.
I chuckle at the dufus agents who praise these men after they wrote the "I'm so sorry" post as being of EVEN finer character.
It's like slapping your mom across the face and then saying "I'm sorry, Mom" and then her buying you a car just because you apologized.
To the followers, the people who so desperately want to be on the "inside" of the re dot net: I implore you to find your own brain and form your OWN thoughts.
If Jay T. and/or @tcar gave you a free ticket to Jonestown and offered you free Kool Aid--most of you would brag about being in the "in group" --without giving the trip or drink a second thought.
Bottoms up.
Submitted by Kevin Tomlinson on March 4, 2011 - 12:35am.
I just decided to become the Miami Beach Real Estate guy & @MIAREGUY on Twitter.
Say goodbye to me!
Submitted by David Losh on March 4, 2011 - 1:37am.
Let's see if this comment gets through or if all my comments are blocked.
Submitted by David Losh on March 4, 2011 - 1:40am.
Well, that worked, how about my longer comment about that I think Inman News released a "news" story after Denise Lones was forced to file a lawsuit. Inman News is also the sponsor who is brining a Real Estate marketing Inman News Connect, to Seattle, which is The Lones Group territory.
Submitted by David Losh on March 4, 2011 - 1:41am.
Maybe it's my referrence to Inman News that get's blocked.
Submitted by David Losh on March 4, 2011 - 1:42am.
Inman News started this whole firestorm with a "news" story. Now we have this follow up fanning the flames.
Submitted by David Losh on March 4, 2011 - 1:44am.
And it is Inman News that is brining daniel to Seattle for the Real Estate marketing extravaganza REBoot Seattle. They have a vested interest here.
Submitted by David Losh on March 4, 2011 - 1:46am.
Daniel had a cease, and desist since July. Denise didn't file a lawsuit until Daniel was coming to town with the Inman News REBoot.
Submitted by David Losh on March 4, 2011 - 1:47am.
Inman News REboot is coming to Seattle.
Submitted by David Losh on March 4, 2011 - 1:48am.
Let's see if the terms Denise Lones, and Daniel Rothemal make it through the spam filter.
Submitted by David Losh on March 4, 2011 - 1:49am.
Daniel worked for Inman News. It looks to me as though Inman News does Real Estate marketing
Submitted by David Losh on March 4, 2011 - 1:50am.
Perfect. It does look orchestrated, as much as these comments look orchestrated.
Submitted by David Losh on March 4, 2011 - 1:51am.
Denise Lones, in my opinion, is defending her brand, against huge odds.
Submitted by John Burchardt on March 4, 2011 - 2:47am.
And we wonder why people don't trust real estate agents!
John Burchardt
LocalHomesForSale.com
Submitted by Matt Fagioli on March 4, 2011 - 3:39am.
It seems to me that the key question you'd ask yourself before filing a suit like this should be "is this worth it" "is there more to be gained than to be lost?" Is it smart business to go forward with something like this?
Regardless of individual behaviors of the many who have reacted, it seems unlikely that it will prove to have been worth the effort. Lones stands to lose more than she might have gained - in fact, that may already be the case!
So, I guess we can debate who is a bully and who is not.
People are people and you have to consider that BEFORE you engage.
The bottom line is that this is already a loss for Lones and its hard to imagine a scenario where they will end up saying "yes, that was a good idea"
Matt Fagioli
Submitted by J Philip Faranda on March 4, 2011 - 9:46am.
Kevin Tomlinson does not speak for me.
If the lawsuit is none of your business, Kevin, neither are my intentions.
Broker-owner, J. Philip Real Estate
Vice President, Empire Access MLS (NY)
www.jphilip.com
www.WestchesterRealEstateBlog.NET
Submitted by John Lockwood on March 4, 2011 - 12:50pm.
Well, I'm very much inclined to agree with Kevin and Frances on this one, though I very much envy Jay's ability to read and anticipate the zeitgeist and land in the middle of it every time. However, to do it by taking the Internet's knee-jerk distrust of anyone defending a copyright or trademark (I want my MP3s!) and use it to get the townspeople after a person who pursued what she may have felt to be an honest legal claim reminds me of all the times I've ever been on or witnessed someone else on the receiving end of the wrath of the group. As for the throngs of admiring fans who latched onto Jay's battle cry and made it their own, their brains -- like the brains of all human beings and other social primates -- have not evolved for rationality (obvsiously) so much as with an acute ability to sniff out the leader and suck up to him in the vague hope of getting tossed a bit of meat at the end of the day.
Now from the leader perspective, as Orwell knew, there's nothing better than a good 10 minute hate to get everyone to do what you want, and of course what Jay wanted is for people to read him. They did, and they are. I'm sure Jay will have one or two more agents working for him when the dust settles, and as for Lomes, the rest of you will come out with inanities like "she should have considered the consequences first". Because you all want your meat too, don't you?
Submitted by Inna Hardison on March 4, 2011 - 1:30pm.
John Lockwood - a rather insulting way to address so many people who simply voiced opinions you may disagree with. To imply that Jay wrote the post and set up a support site for his friend, Daniel, all to get a few more agents or readers crosses a line of basic human decency, to me, that is or paints you as a an extraordinarily cynical person.
Submitted by Jay Thompson on March 4, 2011 - 1:56pm.
"...and of course what Jay wanted is for people to read him. They did, and they are. I'm sure Jay will have one or two more agents working for him when the dust settles."
John, I always appreciate your comments and insight. You have a knack for expressing your opinions -- even when contrary or "less popular" -- without name calling and alienating people. That's an admirable talent.
What I wanted, that I hoped to clarify in my follow up post, was to help people understand a little more about how actions and consequences play out in the social media space. That along with trying to get out the word about the defense fund.
Do I have all the answers for people about social media? Oh heavens no, not even close. But I do read about it, pay attention to it, and have experiences in it that I can share -- for whatever that's worth. Some will find value in my experiences and opinions, some won't.
Of course for someone to get these points, they would obviously have to read the post. But I don't write just to gain readers. I suspect that most people that read my original post already read the blog on occasion. And most that read it wouldn't ever buy or sell a home in Phoenix, which is the ultimate goal for the blog (and yeah, I stray WAY off that goal at times. But that's the primary reason I write most of what I do).
Honestly, if someone approached me to work with us solely because of that article, I wouldn't hire them.
I *do* think the Lones Group should have considered the consequences first. That's just smart business. Potential consequences of ANY action an individual or business takes should be considered. It didn't take a stroke of genius to see the backlash coming. Anyone remotely familiar with the real estate social media space and how social media in general works would have known there would be a reaction. And if they weren't familiar with it, they should have conducted a little research first -- all in my opinion of course.
And maybe Denise Lones did just that. Researched, considered all the implications and decided it was worthwhile to move forward. It would appear from her response that was not the case, but I can't say yay or nay to that for sure.
I don't question anyone's right to defend their trademark. How that defense is approached is up to the individual. I've been able to fix perceived misuses of my material -- from "trademark" to outright theft of content -- many times with a simple email or phone call. Personally, I'd rather take five minutes and spend zero dollars doing it that way as opposed to getting attorneys involved.
But that's just me.
Jay Thompson
Broker / Owner
Thompson's Realty
Blog: www.PhoenixRealEstateGuy.com
.
Submitted by Matt Carter on March 4, 2011 - 3:08pm.
"Regarding the Zebra matter" -- Statement from Hilary Marsh, managing director, Realtor.org:
"On Monday, Feb. 28, REALTOR Magazine published a blog post by Todd Carpenter concerning the social media reaction to a legal case between The Lones Group and Strong Team REALTORS.
"We want to express our sincere apology if we unintentionally misled readers or created the impression that the National Association of REALTORS was taking sides or expressing an opinion about a private matter between two of our valued, and valuable, members."
Submitted by John Lockwood on March 4, 2011 - 4:10pm.
@Inna, well, I'm not sure what specific opinion you think I was insulting, but what I was intending to insult is the human capacity to start weaving nooses without forming an opinion, as an unconscious response to an alpha dog nodding in the direction of a target. Watching what happens in the wake of that always makes me tremble in fear and get sick to my stomach, such that I don't usually stick around to read the "Let's get him, boys!" refrains that you seem to think rise to the level of opinions.
@Jay, oh, I don't know, you'd be surprised at my alienating skills. Boardman can give you a reference. I had another A-lister who would have vouched for me, but I screwed it up by making friends with him.